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Color shift between paper rolls

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Due to covid 19 I find myself having to learn our 3702 and I also had to do a fresh working tank and due to a change in papers, new paper profiles and magazine registrations. I’m used to noritsu dry printers. We have two paper families with 3 different sizes and some have multiple magazines. Our manual says to do a daily set up in the morning and then whenever changing from 10” matte to 11” matte an emulsion number change. Or if a magazine runs out of paper and you put a new roll in. Noritsu tech says that as long as a daily set up is run on that family of paper, emulsion # change just confuses the machine.

Here’s my problem. Whether I go by the manual or the tech, the color and density shifts ever so slightly when I put a new roll into same magazine or use a new magazine of same paper. I only noticed this cause I spent hours getting my skin tones looking perfect for all races between the two different paper finishes. All my color adjustments are under the print channels.

Here’s my questions: Am I reaching for the level of consistency that is not obtainable in the wet print world? I noticed there are color adjustments for magazines also. To me it sounds ridiculous to tie color adjustments to a magazine, what if I want to use that magazine for a different paper type. The tech didn’t even know one can adjust color on print channel level, so he had no answers. BUT is a difference expected between magazines carrying same paper type and size and I should be compensating by adjust the colour balance?

that doesn’t explain the colour shift when a paper roll is changed to same type and lot#. It should be the same. Emulsion # change comes with all zeros for adjustment values.

Yes my control strip is great and there hasn’t been any events.

sorry for possibly sounding dumb. Everyone’s been laid off and the tech only seems to know the mechanics of the machine.

 

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You can do a daily setup more than once a day if required!
Often there is a slight colour change between the morning and the afternoon as the machine/ room gets hotter from use.

If you change the roll of paper used for the daily setup and it is from a different batch, then do the emulsion number change not a daily setup.

Yes in theory the paper from the same batch should be the same, however photographic paper does change slightly with temperature, so it may depend where your new rolls are being stored.

I would not advise putting colour corrections into the print channels.

You can put corrections into the balance of each magazine if you have differences between different widths of paper, normally it is not required though.
The magazines have 4 numbers for each paper width.
So for example for 305(1) could be Kodak, 305(2) cold be Fuji, 305(3) could be Fuji Matt, etc.

How much colour shift are we talking about here? 1 button 0.5 of a button?
Is it always shifting to a certain colour?

 

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That’s great to know there can be a shift through the day, that makes sense. The difference between 10” matte and 11” matte is the most significant. The tech told me not to do an emulsion number change when switching from 10” to 11”. 
When I don’t, there’s noticeably more magenta present. If I do do an emulsion # change there’s a slight increase toward yellow, looks like not only +0.2 Y but it also looks like density goes up and down between the sizes.

so based on this I would want to do daily set up on matte 10” and then emulsion # change when printing on 11”. Doesn’t look like one can do daily set up on 11”.

when a magazine runs out of paper the shift in color is also more noticeable without an emulsion # change. Skin tones get warmer, but not unusable. People just get a slight tan. Again, the tech said no to emulsion # change. I have a hard time with this advice as the machine prompts it. 
so at the end I’m a little confused about when to do the emulsion # change.

I would definitely say that the paper is not properly stored since they keep it in a room that gets dry and warm. Usually they go through it fast but since covid hit, its sat on the shelf much longer.

lustre paper seems to be more forgiving and I don’t have as much shift.
 
So, did I understand correctly:

I do daily set up on 10” matte and Lustre first thing in the morning. (We run mostly those two) A slight change is expected as the machine is in use all day. To control this, I can do another daily set up later.

To control the change to more magenta overcast in 11” paper, I first do an emulsion # change and then adjust color balance on magazine level, rather than print channel.
Moving forward should I do an emulsion number change whenever going from 10” to 11”?

thank you so much.


 

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Normally there is one master paper (daily setup channel if you like) for each paper emulsion type. There is not a daily setup for each paper width.

So in your case it looks like your master paper is setup as 10" Matte?

So if you were running 2 different emulsion types like Kodak and Fuji you would have a master channel setup for both papers types, so you would have 2 different daily setup prints, (one for Kodak and one for Fuji).

It's best to choose the paper width you use the most, for the master paper (daily setup channel).

The daily setup puts the correction through to all the widths of paper where as the emulsion change only corrects that one individual paper width.

Where the problem often lays is people do the emulsion change when actually it was the daily setup that needed to be done instead. For example you do the emulsion change on the 11" paper because it is printing magenta, the machine takes out -1.0M. Now you do the daily setup on the 10" the machine takes out -1.0M, but now the 11" paper will be green as a combined -2.0M correction has been added to it.

What I suggest is to do a daily setup before you do an emulsion number change, especially if the daily setup was done more than say 3 hours ago.

So, did I understand correctly:

I do daily set up on 10” matte and Lustre first thing in the morning. (We run mostly those two) A slight change is expected as the machine is in use all day. To control this, I can do another daily set up later. Yes, you can do as many daily setups as you like throughout the day.

To control the change to more magenta overcast in 11” paper, I first do an emulsion # change and then adjust color balance on magazine level, rather than print channel.
Moving forward should I do an emulsion number change whenever going from 10” to 11”?
  Yes, only do the emulsion number directly after you do the daily setup (or if it is a new batch) then use the magazine correction to balance the difference between the 10" and 11" paper. In theory you should only need to do the magazine balance correction once. you shouldn't normally need to do an emulsion number change every time you go from 10" to 11" paper.

 

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Things are looking much better.

One last thing that’s not making sense.

All the papers are Fuji crystal archive, just different sizes and finishes.

If (with properly stored paper and everything set up correctly) one doesn’t have to do an emulsion change between paper sizes, how come the labels for different sizes and finishes have different emulsion #s on them?

Fuji matte 10” em no. 531-175. Fuji matte 11” em no. 510-310. Fuji lustre 11” em no. 937-006. Etc.

Is that relevant and should I have been plugging those in when I did the paper set ups? Maybe I’ve missed a step.

i also haven’t done a black balance adjustment cause that page is half missing in my manual....I’m assuming that’s why my darks are bleeding in whenever there’s a one pixel white line. (I’m printing photos multiple up on sheet and there’s a thin line in between).

Thank you again 

 


 

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I'm guessing these are really batch numbers, different widths and surfaces of paper will nearly always be from a different batch.

The emulsion type is the paper name like "Crystal archive type II" for example.
"Crystal Archive Type DPII" would be a different emulsion so that would require another separate master channel setup (daily setup channel).

So as long as all your papers are of the same type (the finish, matte/gloss etc doesn't matter) they can all be run from one master channel (daily setup channel)

To be clear, you do still need to do the emulsion setup once per magazine, then in theory again when you have a batch change on a particular size.
What I meant was, once you have done an emulsion number change on a particular roll, you shouldn't need to keep doing it again on the same roll.
The daily setup should keep everything in balance.

The most important thing is to make sure the daily setup is balanced before you do an emulsion number change.

To do the black balance adjustment go to the Maintenance display, click Extension. → Setup → Laser Setup → Paper Specification Registration/Setup →
Functions → Black Balance Adjustment.

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