Jump to content

qss 3001 with lots of paperjam  (6034 / 6096)


YEP

Recommended Posts

What a lovely afternoon. Assisting my friend with his qss-3001 and lots of fun witn paperjam

Sure when things "jam" entering the elevator it's just fun to figure out what goes wrong.

We have finetuned/checked all parameteres there is ... stop points / lengths / slant you name it ... some kind of timing with the (right) elevator action is just not making sense. We do notice a "donk" and a "broken clutch sound" from some wheels (maybe even the two elevators clash) .... nice vivid picture but who knows

We get anywhere from 6, 10, 20, 50 and then a little series of quick jams.

Every thing that can be cleaned has been cleaned on that elevator including the "slide" just before landing there

Any tips would be higly appreciated.

Thanks in advance

PS: a shot in the dark; Can this be releated to the machine suddenly going completely out of range and we had to tell it what paper we use from scratch. I'm just guessing who knows how data sometimes interconnect.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I think it is unlikely that this problem is related to the setup problem you had.

Check the operation of all the motors in output check mode.

Do the motors sound the same between the left and right sides?

The most common problem is the cables on each arm brake internally from the constant movement. This causes intermittent problems with the driving of the horizontal motor/ detection of the horizontal motor home position. Causing random paper jams.

The solution is to change the wiring loom for the reverse unit.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

We actually did that too (sorry for not mentioning). And none of the "weird" sounds occured. Can be we should "stress" it with a little testing and listen more carefully.

Thanks for the tip.

Wondering - This is weird - never experienced this with (copy machines) and the situation is the same to some degree.

Keep the input comming - then I'll check them through tuesday :)

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Take the magnet off the bottom of the door, stick it to the black sensor on bottom of the door frame, now print about 100 4x6 prints and watch them go through, hopefully you will then be able to see what is happening.

You can try wiggling the wire on the arm nearest to you while it is printing to see if that makes it jam.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

After a slow and annoying start things ran perfect since noon and we didn't get any smarter except emtying paper and role the "elevator-arms" up and letting them slide down.

I'm wondering if we scared that  Noritsu error-ghost away or it's due to lower temps today that's as "un-intelligent" a guess as can be :)

We will tamper with the wires given the first "error" of chance / STOP :)

I will follow up with any observation that will arise in this "field of problems".  And we run a "journal" making notes about everything going on with the qss-3001, so we will catch whatever goes on !!

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Particular that region has our utmost interest as the (A062386-01 piece of metal) is extremely loose compared to the mounting of the left "elevator"

Thanks again for the very sharp replies of this forum. We will monitor this very carefully.

As things develop I'll update this thread with progress and exact identification of the problem.

As the problem is "fluctuating" nature (it's there/not there) for longer time and then kicks pack after weeks is the worst kind of errors, as they can make you correct things that works perfectly well :)

Link to comment
Share on other sites

After some jams in the elevator friday I cleaned my glasses and started reading/looking into the service manual. This combined with the notes we've made in our "physical" journal to keep track of annoying/wastefull behaviour :)

Reverse Unit Stop Position Correction (Right)

had to be lowered (down / negative correction). After that we only had two small stop dropping 6 pieces of 10x15cm. And we did about 1000 prints, ~50 pcs 13x18cm and 10 pcs 20x30cm. No trouble with the bigger sizes that was killing us yesterday (friday, 20'th)

Link to comment
Share on other sites

OK adding some observations to the  6034 / 6097 errors.

Paper can drop to the buttom of the chassis, which indicate that the left reverse unit (page 3201 in the service manual) is not getting low enough.

With the built in test (Paperrecieving postion that can be adjusted with the Reverse Unit Stop Position Correction) we observe that the right reverse unit doesn't get low enough even with the max correction of -1,0.

The broking "clutch" sound we haven't been able to catch while running with the door open

Basicly there's 3 scenarios/results of paper jam:

1.

One where the paper is fed and stops at incorrect postion half on the way to the "mouth/opening" of the reverse unit

2.

2nd the paper ends up at the buttom of the chasis no way near the reverse unit

3.

Paper in the gab/mouth of revese unit on the way up hit by the next piece from the exposioure unit

I hope this extended description can assist you qualifying your replies as we want to know as much as possible before we face the horrendous "taxes" by the Noritsu-techs here in Denmark. So they don't play around on our account (which they have done in the past even despite a full service contract).

Thanks in advance for you (hopefully) enlightening replies

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I think it is unlikely that this problem is related to the setup problem you had.

Check the operation of all the motors in output check mode.

Do the motors sound the same between the left and right sides?

The most common problem is the cables on each arm brake internally from the constant movement. This causes intermittent problems with the driving of the horizontal motor/ detection of the horizontal motor home position. Causing random paper jams.

The solution is to change the wiring loom for the reverse unit.

When doing the motor test they sound "normal", of course that can be pure luck or after a stop they're OK, but when in running production things shake/move more hence trouble with wires is my guess if that's it.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Checked all wires of the paper advance unit and exchanged the bad ones.

But we did figure out where the "bad clutch" sound comes from.

Pictures and sound (bad video is up shortly).

The video is right here

Paper advance unit from the top

http://img838.imageshack.us/img838/4682/paperadvanceunit1.jpg

http://img687.imageshack.us/img687/8085/paperadvanceunit2.jpg  *2

http://img525.imageshack.us/img525/8342/paperadvanceunit3.jpg

And now to the bad clutch sound:

http://www.imagerise.com/show.php/892173_Paperadvanceunit4.JPG.html

Between the top black wheel and the metalplate it's mounted on there's a tiny plastic spacer. Compared to the other side it's considerable smaller 1mm+ smaller. This enables the wheel to take a spin with the (bad clutch sound). Yes one can move the wheel on the side closest to the door.

If this is the whole story behind the the paperjam trouble I don't know but the two "reverse units" does clash because of the trouble with the horizontal movement.

And just to be sure we meassured the horisontal motor and sensorcables over again ... and there's noting wrong with the cabling now .. that's for sure. Actually the "paper-grabber" in picture *2 opens up perfectly now which it didn't do before (OK with the very thin cables in some places one can only cross fingers).

Does anyone know what the the name of the different connectors is - espcially the little one that goes into the the motors.

But we're still missing something ... what I don't know at the moment.

Your advise is very welcome

TIA (Thanks in advance)

YEP

Link to comment
Share on other sites

The reverse unit wiring you have is of the old type. The new wiring loom (W408632-01) plugs directly into the motors without any of those little short adaptor cables. I don't think the small adaptor cables you have are available any more as the above part number supersedes them.

You need to be very careful how you install the cables, the horizontal arm needs to be able to be move left and right freely, the cables must be placed so they don’t catch/ rub or restrict the movement of the arms.

The internal cable damage is usually on the black cables that move with each vertical arm, these are the cables you need to test/ check very carefully.

The "bad clutch" sound from the pressure change motor sounds to me like the one of the stepper motor coils is not being driven properly. This is either caused by a break in the wire going to the stepper motor or the stepper motor driver on the Printer I/O PCB 2 is faulty.

Try removing the pressure change motor and, check it turns by hand smoothly (with the power off) if it does, operate the pressure motor in output check, is it spinning smoothly, or is it shaking when it is spinning? I suspect it will be shaking rather than spinning smoothly, indicating the motor is not being driven properly.

The Wiring diagram is attached to help you trace the wiring.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

annoying that I can't change the topic a little things is reduced to 609(5/6/7/8) horizontal movement that gives this bad clutch sound) moving motor around gave away a good tip on where the trouble is located now .... (bad motor)/cable. But as the reverse units interact to some degree in the different patterns of movent I can't pinpoint it 100%.

Hopefully we have a replacement for the "black/bendable cable" in place pretty quick meaning (friday/the weekend), so that we can exclude the cable as the "internals" of the black cable I'm sure isn't in the best condition. I'm almost certain that one can find a better quality in as bendable quality too.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Little correction ... any horizontal action at the right side now ...

But at some point they did clash/hit each other and that can only come from a broken wire or motor not doing what it's supposed to.

preassure change motor is working fine now as I did check "ALL" cables and removed the extenders and wired directly with a wire for all connections. These connections have been at least tripple-checked and sensors and horizontal motor on "reverse-arm" have been switched to make that check too :)

Things moved from left to right, but some trouble just affect the other side. Right side stop ... and left side can't move to the place it's supposed to move to etc. (sensor not activated and so on).

Link to comment
Share on other sites

As it is one of the the horizontal motors that is making that rough sound, probably the horizontal arm is not moving into position quickly enough causing the arms to sometimes hit each other.

9/10 times this problem is caused by the black cables, being bad.

The cables may read OK with a meter, but remember the stepper motors draw a lot more current than the meter does, so if the cable has a few broken strands, it will read good with the meter, but because of the broken strands the cable will not be able to supply enough current to drive the motor properly.

I'm pretty sure it is the black cables that are causing the problem you are having.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

As it is one of the the horizontal motors that is making that rough sound, probably the horizontal arm is not moving into position quickly enough causing the arms to sometimes hit each other.

9/10 times this problem is caused by the black cables, being bad.

The cables may read OK with a meter, but remember the stepper motors draw a lot more current than the meter does, so if the cable has a few broken strands, it will read good with the meter, but because of the broken strands the cable will not be able to supply enough current to drive the motor properly.

I'm pretty sure it is the black cables that are causing the problem you are having.

Yes I'm certain of this too and we're going to exchange both of them.

When this is done I'll have info on all the parts to do those cables DIY for you all.

To make an comparison regarding the thread about spares it would be interesting to know what that spare (bunch of cables) actually costs in different parts of the world ...in Denmark it costs around $240-250 + 25% sales tax.

How many of the noritsu machines have a similar cable setup/ of paper-advance-unit like the qss-3001 ?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

Loading...
×
×
  • Create New...
DL650
DX100