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calibrate monitor


Liz

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Looking for advice please on whether it is possible to calibrate the Noritsu 3300 monitor with my Spyder Pro 2.  Does the minilab rely on information in the graphics card for printing purposes.  Can I come to any grief if I calibrate the monitor?  Would really appreciate some expertise here.  Would love to have my graphics computer, minilab and 7600 in sync which currently they are not.  Thanks in anticipation.

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Good luck Liz. We have a 3202 with the archaic "match prints to monitor" system. I have a spyder but have not yet got up the courage to try it on the lab. I know where the monotor profile is kept in the files, but I do not know if the spyder will calibrate just for windows, or when the noritsu software kicks in.

I'd be interested to hear also.

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I have seen a site in US that offers profiles for different Noritsu labs.  In my way of thinking, a profile for a lab could not be built correctly without a calibrated monitor for starters, so......I rang Kodak but they steered me towards using the Noritsu loaded software that you talked about Mr. Noritsu, (match print to monitor) which I agree is totally unsatisfactory.  They seemed unsure about the calibration thing.

So I'm hoping someone out there can provide some assurance that this would be OK.  What I could do is "ghost" up the machine, try a calibration, and if all goes belly up, I can restore the previous settings from my "ghost" copy.    

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You can calibrate with the spyder however you will find that every time the machine is restarted the Noritsu profile will kick in instead, meaning you would have to calibrate it every day, and any time the machine PC is restarted.

Unless you start messing around and changing file names etc.

Also you may find that the monitor no longer matches prints especially in density.

What I have done before is to set the brightness using the Noritsu adjustment, then calibrate using the spyder, but maybe this is rather pointless as the screens still will be different between your machine and your computer!

I have found the best way to calibrate the screens on the 32/33 machines is to initialize the monitor data, then only adjust the colour, adjusting all those different pictures with the glasses in seems to actually make things a lot worse!

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Some questions first:

Are you saying the calibration that comes with the 3300 is not doing its job?

Do the prints that come out not match the 3300 screen?

Have you had a (printer) profile made for your 3300?

What profile(s) do you use when printing to the 7600?

Are all the other monitors in the lab (apart from the one on the 3300) profiled?

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Thanks Dave and JS.  Always appreciate your input.

Firstly, Dave.....  It seems from what you are saying that the QSS software will override any monitor calibration.  This makes me curious then for the web site offering calibration for your lab.  It would seem to me then that to pay for this service would be throwing your money away?  Everything I've researched suggest that without a montor calibration then you are up the creek.  This may only relate to inkjet printers.  But I also see other professional printer sites offering their lab calibration for pro photographers to match.  Do they just ignore monitor calibration and go for print output?  This would be great provided paper is set up and no dirtied channels.  I guess I just don't understand how QSS drives the process and includes the monitor in that process.

In answer to your questions JS -

(a) & (B) My Noritsu-supplied monitor blew up within 6 months and was replaced with a Phillips monitor.  It has always been a poor cousin.  Soft in display and lacking punch.  There is some eye strain to PJP a print.  As you can appreciate, juding a print for correction (or thousands a day) needs to be an automated human process based on visual acuity.  And I would say that the prints come out better than the monitor displays and incorporate the corrections we have made.  That's why I thought, if I calibrate the monitor I might get a better display which will give us more confidence in our quick-response to PJP.

As far as monitor calibration goes, I tried the Noritsu monitor profile route and the results were truly horrible.  So I haven't played that game again!

©  Well, how can you make a printer profile if the monitor is not providing the visual confirmation?  Do I do this independently of the monitor?   I could do it with my Spyder.  Sit there for hours clicking on the squares.  I think I'm still stuck on the monitor thing at this stage.

(e) Skipped a question here.  But to answer monitors being profiled I need to explain my workflow.

So...

(d)  My workflow is this -

I have a computer networked to the lab.  On this Spyder profiled computer I do all my restoration and special print work.  This can either be sent to the lab or the 7600.  I have great variance between the two hardwares.  What I tend to do is proof my work to the lab first.  This is always a problem and I usually have to -2 density and do occasional colour adjustment.  I work in RGB in Photoshop and it would seem the lab works in sRGB as the colour space has a signifcant shift.  The 7600 is also giving me grief which I have posted elsewhere on this lab.

After rereading this post, the intrinsic thing is to hone on in the graphics computer as the source of my problem and I don't discount this.  But I have upgraded the video card, turned off Adobe Gamma and followed all the right instructions/directions to print from Photoshop to either the lab or the 7600 with wildy varying results.

What I'm trying to achieve is a sychronised workspace between my computer, the lab and the 7600.  My thinking is, calibrate the 3300 monitor with the Spyder (although Dave says "can't do") then when the prints match the montor, profile the lab output and put that into my graphics computer for proofing to the lab.  Should match right?  Then try and match that profile to the 7600.

:):P ;D :-/ ::);)  ?Well, what's so hard about that?!!!!!

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A couple of points to remember, your lab and 7600 will produce different output from the same file as they have different colour gamets.  Different papers will give you different different looks on your 7600.

Your monitor profile does not affect how an image is printed.  You might look at the image on the monitor and then make adjustments but that is diiferent.  Images prepared on another computer should just be printed with no adjustment.

When companies talk about profiles for their minilabs they are printer profiles, and describe how the image will be printed.  This allows photographers etc to soft proof the image before it is printed.

All profiles assume that the capture/pre-view/print device is stable and consistant.  So if a lab is out of balance the prints will be out too.

Your situation sounds like it has lots of varriables of which your are not sure which are 100% correct.  You might try one of the Colour Check kits that are available.  These consist of prints and a CD that are correctly printed.  So you know that what you see on your monitor  should look like the prints, and what you print should also be the same.

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A couple of points to remember, your lab and 7600 will produce different output from the same file as they have different colour gamets.  Different papers will give you different different looks on your 7600.

The very purpose of CMS is to solve this problem. That is to get same result from the same file irrespective the color gamuts of the printers using proper rendering intents.

And "Different papers will give different looks on 7600." Yes,we have to  prepare  and use different profile for each type of paper.Not just one profile for one printer, it is one profile for one type of paper.

KVS

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I do looking for solution for the same problem. That is i do have 32 series machine and totally unhappy with the Noritsu's built in SW only Dispaly monitor calibration tool with that seven different prints thing,recently tried to calibrate the printers monitor with it totally unsatisfied matching results.And not dared enough to use "eye one display" HW/SW solution on the printers monitor though i use it for my other graphic work stations.

I am not clear on whether Noritsu printing SW is ICC compatible or not.But one thing is sure it does not respect the embedded profiles. For example take one file  of srgb in PS  assign say "prorgb"( do not convert)and save a copy and now send the original file which is in srgb and the new file which is in prorgb and see the results! My god they look exactly same!!! though as per theory and rule they are supposed to look entirely different as as shown in PS, this clearly shows that noritsu just don't care what the embedded profile is and assumes that all in coming files are in srgb. very similar to and  like our not color managed managed 'internet explorer' and 'fire fox' browsers!What a sad situation.

KVS

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Thanks Dave and JS.  Always appreciate your input.

Firstly, Dave.....  It seems from what you are saying that the QSS software will override any monitor calibration.  This makes me curious then for the web site offering calibration for your lab.  It would seem to me then that to pay for this service would be throwing your money away?

No, a printer profile has nothing to do with a monitor profile, you don't even need a monitor to profile a printer.

Everything I've researched suggest that without a montor calibration then you are up the creek.  This may only relate to inkjet printers.  But I also see other professional printer sites offering their lab calibration for pro photographers to match.  Do they just ignore monitor calibration and go for print output?  This would be great provided paper is set up and no dirtied channels.  I guess I just don't understand how QSS drives the process and includes the monitor in that process.

True, monitor calibration is important if you want to see what a print will look like before you print. It relates to all printers, not just inkjets. The other labs you're talking about will print everything 'without corrections' so the monitor is irrelevant. You need to get your head round the fact that the monitor has nothing to do with how the prints come out. Get into the habit of printing all (professional) work without corrections, then you have a starting reference point for the printer, in theory as long as you keep the printer balanced, then if you send the same file to print week after week it will look the same. This  is the basis for a colour managed system - a consistent printer output.

In answer to your questions JS -

(a) & (B) My Noritsu-supplied monitor blew up within 6 months and was replaced with a Phillips monitor.  It has always been a poor cousin.  Soft in display and lacking punch.  There is some eye strain to PJP a print.  As you can appreciate, juding a print for correction (or thousands a day) needs to be an automated human process based on visual acuity.  And I would say that the prints come out better than the monitor displays and incorporate the corrections we have made.  That's why I thought, if I calibrate the monitor I might get a better display which will give us more confidence in our quick-response to PJP. As far as monitor calibration goes, I tried the Noritsu monitor profile route and the results were truly horrible.  So I haven't played that game again!

I'm not sure how you calibrate the monitor on the 3300 - we have a 2901 which uses an on screen 'puck' to take measurements on the screen. I wouldn't try and calibrate it with a 3rd party sytem though. I would speak to Noritsu about it and get them to sort it.

©  Well, how can you make a printer profile if the monitor is not providing the visual confirmation?  Do I do this independently of the monitor?   I could do it with my Spyder.  Sit there for hours clicking on the squares.  I think I'm still stuck on the monitor thing at this stage.

What hardware do you have for making printer profiles? You can't make a printer profile with a Colorvision Spyder as far as I know? Specifically, which hardware do you have? Again, you don't need a calibrated monitor to profile a printer.

(e) Skipped a question here.  But to answer monitors being profiled I need to explain my workflow.

So...

(d)  My workflow is this -

I have a computer networked to the lab.  On this Spyder profiled computer I do all my restoration and special print work.  This can either be sent to the lab or the 7600.  I have great variance between the two hardwares.  What I tend to do is proof my work to the lab first.  This is always a problem and I usually have to -2 density and do occasional colour adjustment.  I work in RGB in Photoshop and it would seem the lab works in sRGB as the colour space has a signifcant shift.  The 7600 is also giving me grief which I have posted elsewhere on this lab.

Sorry to be blunt but this is all wrong!

First you need to print on the 3300 without corrections and accept that the output from this printer is correct. Once you acept this the you will realise that it's the files you're sending to the 3300 that are wrong. This is where a printer profile comes in (and a calibrated monitor to a certain extent). You need to convert your files to the printers profile before you print them:

20061113.jpg

And they should look like the screen (assuming the screen is calibrated). You can't do this without a printer profile though.

After rereading this post, the intrinsic thing is to hone on in the graphics computer as the source of my problem and I don't discount this.  But I have upgraded the video card, turned off Adobe Gamma and followed all the right instructions/directions to print from Photoshop to either the lab or the 7600 with wildy varying results.

Have you downloaded profiles for the 7600 that corespond to the paper you are using?

20061013.jpg

The print preview screen on Photoshop should look something like this.

What I'm trying to achieve is a sychronised workspace between my computer, the lab and the 7600.  My thinking is, calibrate the 3300 monitor with the Spyder (although Dave says "can't do") then when the prints match the montor, profile the lab output and put that into my graphics computer for proofing to the lab.  Should match right?  Then try and match that profile to the 7600.

Sorry again but this is all wrong. Forget the 3300 monitor, it's irrelevant. Please get back to us with your thoughts on the above stuff. As an aside, are these people anywhere near you?

http://www.pixelperfect.com.au

The very purpose of CMS is to solve this problem. That is to get same result from the same file irrespective the color gamuts of the printers using proper rendering intents.

You are not always going to be able to match prints across different papers, even with accurate profiles. Some papers are just intrinsically different.

I do looking for solution for the same problem. That is i do have 32 series machine and totally unhappy with the Noritsu's built in SW only Dispaly monitor calibration tool with that seven different prints thing,recently tried to calibrate the printers monitor with it totally unsatisfied matching results.And not dared enough to use "eye one display" HW/SW solution on the printers monitor though i use it for my other graphic work stations.

I am not clear on whether Noritsu printing SW is ICC compatible or not.But one thing is sure it does not respect the embedded profiles. For example take one file  of srgb in PS  assign say "prorgb"( do not convert)and save a copy and now send the original file which is in srgb and the new file which is in prorgb and see the results! My god they look exactly same!!! though as per theory and rule they are supposed to look entirely different as as shown in PS, this clearly shows that noritsu just don't care what the embedded profile is and assumes that all in coming files are in srgb. very similar to and  like our not color managed managed 'internet explorer' and 'fire fox' browsers!What a sad situation.

KVS

I think there is a software 'switch' to enable colour management on the 32 series. What version software are you using?

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  • 2 weeks later...

Here's what we do for a color managed workflow, we calibrate workstations with the Eye one Display 2, create printer ICC profiles with the Eye One Photo for each of our three noritsus, two 3302 pros, and 1 34 pro.  THese profiles are loaded into Photoshop, or Workstream and images are softproofed while color corrected.  files are then sent via Net order order more to the printers.  this bypasses the need for monitor calibration on the printers themselves.

we have CMS turned on through Net order.

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"this is a quote from  Liz sorry haven't got the hang of the quote thing.......................................................................................................    n answer to your questions JS -

    (a) & (B) My Noritsu-supplied monitor blew up within 6 months and was replaced with a Phillips monitor.  It has always been a poor cousin.  Soft in display and lacking punch.  There is some eye strain to PJP a print.  As you can appreciate, juding a print for correction (or thousands a day) needs to be an automated human process based on visual acuity.  And I would say that the prints come out better than the monitor displays and incorporate the corrections we have made.  That's why I thought, if I calibrate the monitor I might get a better display which will give us more confidence in our quick-response to PJP. As far as monitor calibration goes, I tried the Noritsu monitor profile route and the results were truly horrible.  So I haven't played that game again!

........................................................................................................................................................................................................

Well regardless of paper profiles and managed workflows, as said above monitors get replaced or go a funny colour after using them for months and its great if you can take a minilab screen back to a neautral rather than where it has drifted over time. Matching the print is another problem.

So here how a mate of mine got arround this monitor profile on his old lab

1. find the monitor profile used by the pc that is running the monitor.

2. copy this and save it in a folder somewhere on the pc so that you can go back to it if this method doesnt work.

3 use the spider or whatever to calibrate the monitor and at the end when it wants to name the calibration and save it somewhere

4. Call it the same name as 1 and save it in the same place

So this way you fool the machine into thinking the profile hasnt changed - but it has

If this doesnt work copy  the one you carefully filed away in 2 and paste it into the origanal file location. windows will ask you if you want to replace and say yes.

Then you are back where you started.

In my experiance most monitors can be calibrated - but not touch screens.  :-/

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