Is there a long term future for minilabs?

[TonyT]

Hi everyone, please take the time to think about this and vote in the poll. Once you have voted please add any comments you may have.

In particular if you are a non UK member you views and experiences would be of particular interest.

I'm in the situation of having to make a big decision. Our lease is up for renewal early next year, do I renew it and reinvest in the business or close down?

I , and I am sure there are many others in my situation would like to have your opinions on the state of this industry to help us make some choices. Ideally I would like to reinvest and carry on for 10 more years but is it a good idea?

All voters and posters have my thanks in anticipation and appreciation.

Please take part.

Best wishes to all

Tony

[NeilT]

Excellent and thought provoking thread Tony. I think that the way that things are looking, things are going to get worse before they get better. But as a independent lab, we will always have the edge over the large chains.

I am lucky in that we not not have a lease problem here, but as discussed in the past, the actual high street its self is in turmoil, with many stores shutting down, or changing location. Maybe when/if the general public realise what they have lost, will things change.

I do feel that any mini-lab (stand alone) that now relies on conventional D+P will not survive. The same being for the chains of regular D+P out fits. The likes of Max Spielman, Klick, Bonus Print etc etc, need huge quantities of D+P to break even, and I have heard some stories that at least on of the names mentioned is not having a good time of things at the moment.

I think that in another 2 years time we will see a better picture, and maybe things will stabalise for those of us that are left or even survive. But, who knows, digital has caught even the big companies with there trousers down.. Kodak telling me digital was not a threat 3 years back, and that I should not invest in a digital lab, but instead get a wooden floor and a shop fit. Thank god, I went on my own gut feeling, or else Kodak's advice would have put me out of business.

I have a been in this trade since leaving school, some 27 years back, and I have a huge passion for what  I do, and the whole trade as a whole, but things have now changed. I did a talk at the PMA show last year, and part of the message I was trying to across, was that we are in a new book, this is not a new chapter, but a new book that is being written from the start. I feel sorry for the small independent camera shops that are being shafted by suppliers, at least for the most part, we do not have this as a major problem.

Education is a key factor, and for the public, maybe they believe what the inket jet printer manufactures are telling them, in that home printing is the way to go. But, all being well, when printing at home becomes tedious and boring, and the novelty has gone, that is where we step in. This will take a couple of years, maybe, and by then maybe some of the high street D+P outfits doing stuff at 10p a print will no longer be around.

[TonyT]

Thanks for your insightful (is that a real word?) reply Neil.

Some people (actually the ones trying to get my replacement minilab  business) insist that the worst is over and that next year will see a marked improvement.

My problem is that it needs to be next year or never. (for us, not the rest of you  ;D)

Come on lads and lasses, any more comments?

I see 5 of you have voted ( I haven't yet) but only Neil has left a comment, To those that have voted please be so kind to comment why you voted the way you did.

So far the vote is 3:2 for optimism  ;D

Tony

[hgn1968]

I am very much a newcomer to this site, guided to it by Photo-Me rep. Robin March. I have scanned the site on and off all day, and I must say that I am quite impressed.

Owner operators must embrace change and educate their existing customers of the changes occurring. Most of us now include an "index print" with all orders. This is an under used advertising medium- a small advertising banner on this print can go a long way. Everyone knows the score in relation to perceived value advertising, we all have the ability to undertake this, but invariably adopt the "Bah Humbug" syndrome about giving something away for nothing. Something else that really annoys me is newspaper advertising-why blow

[mike hemsley]

Educating the customers to realise that minlabs and digital photo prints are part of everyday image making is part of the battle. The big problem is that consumer electronic companies are bashing out ads very quickly at the present moment (Christmas is coming...) to sell imaging gadgets...I have found an image from the web from today that says it all - trouble is I know which way the public will take the message.I'd not be surprised if the message was..."because we printed it ourselves it must be better ......"- whatever the 5 ink cartridges,dense gloss photo paper and the printer costs".  Make ordering true photo prints fun and easy whilst the family are using their computer to view recently shot pictures Mum could be ordering prints locally from you.. the minilab the family supported in 'film days'.

I know you will say that I would have to say this  - but, if local labs could "hi-jack" the digital business through their own online digital print service then the minilabs could all be part of the daily imaging process (only now also driven from the customers computer desktop).Incidentally you are not alone with customer problems...my clients to a man(and woman) are getting or have got digital cameras and are using them ("just for rush jobs you understand") They to say to me they will be back if its a difficult shoot...but like the attached ad people will believe they can do it on their own. I too may not be around if everybody takes this attitude.

[TonyT]

Harvey, welcome to the forum and thanks for your input.  

Mike, I just knew what you were going to say  ;D ;D

But I think you are right, food for thought.

More input please  ;D

Tony

ps Harvey you have a pm

[DaveAshton]

Tony,

Good post this one! I am in agreement with Harvey on the whole. I think there is no way of being a 100% certain of where any business venture is going to end up taking you, whether you are starting out or making your next 5-10 year plan for an existing well established business. One of the downsides of working for yourself is that lack of security I guess! Still embracing the changes our particular industry is throwing at us is the way to go in my opinion. I am a firm believer in being honest with yourself, Identifing changes which will have a negative or indeed positive effect on the business, (either from competitors or the opinions of your customer base) and react, QUICKLY. The market/customers will always take your/our businesses where they want you to go. Anyone who tries to fight it or wait for a revearsal back to the 'good old days' so to speak is fighting a loseing battle, like neil has already mentioned I can't imagine anyone without digital printing capability surviving. I know if I hadn't made the move I wouldn't be trading today.

Anyway to the point at hand I feel that there are good times ahead for all who are willing to adapt, expand and diversify. Like Mike I also believe on line printing services is going to be important area. Certainly something we are looking at currently.

Finally the key to any successful business is its customers! and further to what I have already said us independents always will have the most powerful tools available, 'Excellent Customer Service, Flexibility & Quality' something currently not available from your home PC, and often forgotten by the big firms.

[TonyT]

Dave, good reply m8.

So, the score is 60:40, getting more confident. Unless someone knows different  

Please keep the replies coming lads and don't forget to vote  

Tony

[Jack]

[TonyT]

So far the votes are showing confidence in the future.

Let's have more votes and comments, then I will post my thoughts and decisions  :

Tony

[Jack]

Tony, I have just been reading about Salisbury Photo Centre who report a 15% year on year growth in D&P and film sales. They say they process  100 rolls a day and have professional photographeres reverting back to film. At Foto Stop in Swanage, they process on average during the summer season 1000 films a week. During carnival week, 2000. In the winter doldrums they still process 400-500 films a week, with the darkest winter months down to 300 a week. There SUC camera sales have seen an 85% growth.

So obviously the future is very rosy indeed!

[NeilT]

I am a little unsure about these figures, the only labs that I know off that are getting better sales, are newish labs, that have only been around for a few years, so, for my self, I take these sales with a small pinch of salt.

[Trevor brown]

Yes theres a future for us all unless we self -destruct like Kodak.

All you hear about is the moans and groans about declining trade and then these same people Cut-price to get a slice of the action.

So what if Asdas or Tescos do digital prints at 10p or there abouts, we can as individuals never compete on price with them or if we do we are not making enough money for re-investment in Equipment. We are all to conserned about volume and not PROFIT  50 prints for

[TonyT]

Trevor, you're right in what you say, but when at present the public are only interested in price how exactly do you get them to spend more with you?

We have a tesco superstore just a mile away and since they started on-site D&P about 2 months ago I know I have lost work to them. Their pricing is crazy and I cannot hope to compete. These people will not play on the same playing field as you and I and will slowly kill us.

Sorry to sound so negative but that is what I think.

The point of this thread was to get feedback to help us decide whether or not to invest in new equipment.

We have had Agfa and Photo-me vying for our business and their quotes and thrown in goodies were reducing/ increasing on a daily basis.

Our problem is that our existing lab (an Agfa MSC300.d hybrid) is only 2 1/2 years old and we owe

[NeilT]

Ah passions run high with this thread  ;D There was a tv prog last week Tonight With Trevor McDonald, showing how the likes of Tesco have destroyed towns, if you think we have it bad, you should try to be a book show, or a record store. They showed how when the last Harry Potter book came out, the independent shop could get it at the best price of

[SueLloyd]

Hi there, I'm Richard, Sue's partner.  I've locked her in the cupboard under the stairs in order to get on the computer.

After reading this thread with particular regard to Tony's imminent decision as to whether to reinvest or not my gut feeling is that the key issue is whether you can see a way of making a profit from printing photographs.  As the bloke from Marks & Sparks said - Turnover for Vanity, Profit for Sanity.  We all understand that with the supermarkets charging daft prices for digital reprints there's no margin and therefore no future in that direction.

It seems to me that adding value is what it will be about rather than playing the small margin high volume game.  With years of experience I would have thought Tony could easily apply expertise in the field of colour correction, print from print and not least photography itself (at the very least from a lab's perspective) to a clientele that will pay a premium for getting good prints.

This is a fundamental problem that we are all facing and I personally think that the only viable answer is to accept lower processing volumes and compensate with higher margin services that offer a service that the punters cannot achieve themselves.

Hope this helps - must go now as Sue has broken out of the cupboard and is coming at me armed with a dustpan and brush

[NeilT]

Great post Richard!! I was with a rep on Friday, and talking of the doom and gloom, then I started to think... If the supermarkets offer it, we can not match them on price, so do not go down that road, but if the supermarkets do not offer it, we have a chance, so I think we need to push, and push some more the niche services that we offer, that can not be done at the supermarkets.

[TonyT]

Now we're getting somewhere.

As some of you know we have been offering poster prints from a large format inkjet printer- this has been going well. We have always been doing print from print and this seems to have been very lively recently- perhaps these are areas that the supermarkets do not want to enter as they require a degree of skill.

Any advice on the best approach to sell large prints to local businesses?

Tony

[NeilT]

Any advice on the best approach to sell large prints to local businesses?

we have that you need to have some pretty big window posters, to show your actual work, make them eye catching, bold and bright, this will help generate some intrest.

[NeilT]

Here is a pic of one of our main windows, with our Christmas posters, this was all done and ready for the 1st December

[JP]

Bump.

[Tony.T]

Bloody hell  ;D

This is an old thread. Well, I'm still here, we've had one shop refit, all new equipment ( Photo-me) and new signage in the interim. None of which I thought might happen when I started this thread 2 years ago  ;D

Business is still poor, but the mix is different and there is profit to be made. I think that when the recession in the retail sector ( and there is a recession) is over those of us left intact will do well.

Tony

Still plugging on regardless.

[Photographis]

Well Guys, I haven't read all the threads, but by the general tone the feeling is much the same as mine.

Most chemists have stopped doing d&p because of dropping numbers, not everyone is using tesco's/boots/asda etc. etc. My d&p has more than doubled since Christmas, and my old Hope has been eating at least one film a month. Its ok, guys, just bought a V50 (will need manuals and probably advice on setup, after its cleaned). I will continue to process film, ensuring I can process as many types as possible, the volume will never return, but neither will it die for a long time to come.

when the big boys no longer process film, my V50 will still be going (touch wood).

I think , although I may be off mark, the industry has looked on d&p as 'bread and butter' work, when in fact it was the icing.

   When processing, I have 7 to 8 out of 10 film that are well exposed, composed etc. etc. and only 2/3 that are badly exposed (failed) - I know for a fact that only a few years ago the figures would have been the other way round--as a photographer that would have made me cry every day, especialy if processing the number of films that would have been processed then.

   I think myself lucky to have entered this trade at this time in its history. Although I am at a disadvantage re. experiance , my love of the Image and the will to make a living for my Family , and lack of pre-conceptions from any particular aspect of the trade allows me to be flexible (in a business sense). I will make mistakes, but hopefully small enough not to effect my business to much, and big enough to learn from.

   Most of you guys out there have a lifetimes experiance in this trade , and many of you would have battled through the 80's, a terrible time for most, and this is not so different. The trade has changed. It has changed before. When Archive material is cheap enough for the man in the street to print his snaps on, we may be in trouble........... BUT

   MOST PEOPLE CAN COOK , HOW MANY OF YOU HAVE BEEN OUT FOR A MEAL RECENTLY ?

Just work your way through it guys, go with the flow, roll with the punches. ;D ;D 8)

[JP]

Well 2 years ago I voted 'No, Digital and home printing has killed it for ever' and I'm still of the same opinion. Film is dead - we probably process 10%-15% of what we used to process. It is now cheaper, per picture, to buy memory cards than film e.g.

http://www.ebuyer.com/UK/product/82393

I think there is a future for us as retailers if we change radically and offer new services etc but the high street minilab of old, that just prints pictures has no long term future. It'll be intersting to see where we are in another 2 years.

It's interesting also that reading back the old posts Jack, Sue Lloyd and Neil have all left the industry.

[Colopt]

I think the mini lab has a future, but it is somthing completely different to what has existed in the past. Unfortunately film died a much quicker death than many of us expected, so the industry has floundered in it's wake. The challenge is to come up with a business plan that works without film, and there are many directions that could take, it's a matter of trying different things and seeing what works. (until something works or you run out of money, whichever comes first)

In theory, a service providing the printing of digital photos should be successful in itself, but even the best ideas fail (and some of the dumbest succeed!) the volume just doesn't seem to be there like it was with film. I guess you can only try.