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Noritsu 3011 PC not starting


lfitz350

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I have a 3011 that was working fine one day and the next day the PC will not turn on.  The machine is powered off at the breaker each night and in the morning the breaker (on the machine) is turned on and then the ON switch for the PC section is pushed and the PC starts.  Worked fine one day and the next day it did not.  I have tested the push button switch, I've checked  the PC Power supply and all voltage are at spec, all voltages on the Processor Control PCB are correct and all 4 of the voltage LEDs are lite.  I have the manuals for the machine and have traced what I believe to be the issue to relay X28 on the Processor Control PCB.  This relay when triggered sends +24V -1 to the System Control PCB J/P988.  I don't have the +24 voltage and the manuals do not show what causes the trigger of relay X28 on the Process Control PCB.  I've looked at several versions of the service manual and even contacted Noritsu America and it seems X28 relay trigger was not documented. Any one have any idea what is not happening that is keeping relay X28 on Processor Control PCB from activating? 

Hoping someone has notes! 

thanks,

Fitz

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If breaker is ON QSS3011 computer ATX power supply input should get a.c. voltage. Check do you have it. It is enough to press computer "power" button and computer should start.

Monitor power is supplied through relay X5 ( on main relay pcb ) . Look do you have a.c. power on monitor. Unplug cord and check with multimeter.

If you have power on computer ATX power supply, but when you press computer start button then computer doesn't work. Might be not working power supply, RAM, or motherboard. Need change computer, or repair it.

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208 v to the ATX power supply and monitor.

ATX Power supply was checked with power supply checking device and all voltages were good with exception of 12 v reading of 11.9vt.

I'll swap the ATX with another just to be sure.

So the +24v -1 no on the System Control not the issue?  What is it for ? Seems odd that Noritsu would no document  relay X28 on the processor control PCB.

X28 is a mechanical relay which typically are triggered with lever and door sensors.  

Thanks for the quick response

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If you have 208 V on ATX power supply and on monitor and you pressed computer power button computer should start. 

24V-1 is supplied through X28 relay. It is on processor control pcb. X28 relay coil is connected to diode D27 . You can check relay control voltage there.
X28 controls processor control pcb. I think this relay is to start computer remotely ( at time, which is on timer settings ) . It is not necessary. Computer you can start any time - if to press computer power button. 

24V-1 to relay input goes from POWER SUPPLY 1.  This voltage should be always ( connector J/P797 on processor control pcb ) .

Edited by Minilab service
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3 hours ago, lfitz350 said:

208 v to the ATX power supply and monitor.

ATX Power supply was checked with power supply checking device and all voltages were good with exception of 12 v reading of 11.9vt.

I'll swap the ATX with another just to be sure.

So the +24v -1 no on the System Control not the issue?  What is it for ? Seems odd that Noritsu would no document  relay X28 on the processor control PCB.

X28 is a mechanical relay which typically are triggered with lever and door sensors.  

Thanks for the quick response

The relay x28 is triggered once when the machine turns on in program timer mode, it connects to an opto isolator which gives the signal to power on the PC.

This has nothing to do with the PC not powering on, as pressing the power button will also send the signal to turn on the PC.

It's either going to be an ATX PSU issue or a motherboard issue.

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I swapped out the ATX power supply and it made no change. 

I guess I'll next swap the mother board.  Question about the motherboard keep the PC from starting, wouldn't I still expect the the power supply to turn on, at least the fan?

Also, in my service manual  it looks like X8 is the relay for the program timer and X28 supplies +24v to the system control PCB.

image.png.a872545a83c19064fec9f3d42d532ef9.png

image.png.1834d5d61d8a9305113ec8fe26506c1c.pngI appreciate the help and advise, I'm just trying to understand how this all works.

thanks

 

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Here is standard computer and nothing else. Computer works absolutely the same, as any other standard computer. It is enough connect power and on computer press button. After that computer should start. 

On ATX power supply output in stand by mode are only few voltages. When you press button computer should start. Motherboard should power on ATX power supply and there should appear all voltages. Fans should get power supply and they should rotate. On monitor should see BIOS startup. 

If you press computer button and computer doesn't power on then can be not working power supply, not working motherboard, or RAM.

Forget about timer circuit. Now you do not need it. First you have start computer. Only after that can run minilab. As written above  relay x28 is triggered once. It remotely press computer button to start it. You can run computer without it. Just enough to press button on computer.

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The ATX power supply is turned on directly from the motherboard, it connects the PS_ON# connector which is on pin 16 on the ATX connector plug to Common (GND).

Yes x8 is for the program timer relay, and x28 supplies +24V to the system control PCB for approximately 1 second, it does not continually supply +24v. Like I said it's function is to remotely turn on the PC when the machine turns on in program timer mode.
As I have already said, this has nothing to do with your problem.

If the ATX power supply is known to be good, the problem will be with the power on circuit on the motherboard itself.

 

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I appreciate the help and wanted to share a new twist.  I am still waiting for a mother board, so today I decided to retest the power switch board.  I pulled it out and verified that the switch was working.  After reinstalling the switch assembly I turned the machine breaker on to see if maybe something had changed.  The switch still didn't turn on the PC.  I got pulled away and left the machine breaker on with the processor heating and the dryer cycling.  After about 30 minutes I noticed the LED next to the PC power switch was on and the Monitor had the text "Award Preboot" with a couple of lines of dots.  So this is new.  The PC turned on somehow and the mother board is having issues starting.   While I wait for the motherboard anything more I can try?

Thanks,

Larry

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If computer doesn't start can be not working power supply, motherboard, RAM, or processor.

To test power supply is enough connect power supply pin 16 to ground. Pin 16 usually has Green wire and Ground has Black wires. If to join them power supply should ON ( run power supply fan, on output should be all voltages ) . If your computer once tried to start probably power supply works.

When bad RAM in most cases computer tries to start, but you hear "beep" . Sometimes faulty RAM do not allow to start at all. Can leave one RAM module ( try start with one module and then with other ) .

If doesn't start motherboard you can try to reset BIOS. Remove BIOS battery and start without it. Computer should to start even without power switch board. It is enough to join two motherboard pins ( they depend on exact motherboard model ) .

It was not necessary to search exactly the same motherboard. Can use newer motherboard which has :
Windows 2000 drivers. Can be original Windows 2000 PRO , or modified Windows 2000 version ( for example BlackWingCat , or some other ) 
Motherboard should have two ( or more ) PCI slots.
Motherboard should have COM ( can be metal external connector, or plastic internal connector ) .

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  • 2 weeks later...

New (to me) motherboard installed and still no change. If I received a bad motherboard I wouldn't expect it to have the exact problem as the original. New Motherboard came with RAM so I can rule that out.  I've replaced the ATX power supply twice and all three that have been in the machine test fine with a power supply tester.  Is there a way to "jump start" the PC?  Maybe put +24vt to the PC connecting board for a second? Any other thoughts?

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Here computer and nothing else. Forget about 24V and interface.

On ANY computer is enough to press power button and computer should start. Do not need minilab, 24V and etc. PC interface just does the same what does power power button.

Test your motherboard without minilab. If already inserted processor and RAM connect power supply and monitor. Then if you press power button ( or short contacts )  power supply should start. Computer should start and on monitor you should see image.

On QSS3011 can use any motherboard, which can work with Windows 2000 . Motherboard should have two ( or more ) PCI slots and COM port ( can be external, or internal ) .

Edited by Minilab service
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2 hours ago, lfitz350 said:

New (to me) motherboard installed and still no change. If I received a bad motherboard I wouldn't expect it to have the exact problem as the original. New Motherboard came with RAM so I can rule that out.  I've replaced the ATX power supply twice and all three that have been in the machine test fine with a power supply tester.  Is there a way to "jump start" the PC?  Maybe put +24vt to the PC connecting board for a second? Any other thoughts?

Short the 2 pins on the front panel connector on the motherboard for 1 second, and the motherboard should start up.

The 2 pins are marked in red in the below diagram.

SuperMicro Front Panel connections.jpg

Edited by Dave S
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I appreciate all the help and hope someday I can help someone else.  The 3011 is now working!

The issue was resolved by replacing the PS2 keyboard.  I knew from the start it was going to be something simple and as it turns out it was!

To recap I've replaced the ATX power supply, the PC mother board, processor control pcb, system control pcb, ATX power supply a second and third time and now the key board.

Again, I appreciate all the help.  It's nice to know I'm not alone out here.  Maybe someone else will have a similar issue and try the keyboard first!

Thanks again,

Larry

 

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Update, after being very hopeful yesterday with the PC starting and the 3011  scanning film, this morning I'm back to the PC not turning on!

I'm back to the same place I was when this mess started.  Any other ideas because I'm out of them! Thanks again for all the help.

Side note: I rolled another 3011 into the lab.  This one hasn't been run in about 7 years. (it was running when stored)  I hope to get it running soon to use a backup and maybe to use in trouble shooting the other 3011. 

 

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Just can repeat the same. Here is computer and nothing else.

From computer disconnect keyboard, mouse, hard disks CD drive. Leave connected only monitor. Connect a.c. power and on motherboard short start contacts ( red marked ) . If doesn't start - motherboard, or power supply do not work. Ask any it engineer to make computer diagnostic. Can do it without minilab.

On QSS3011 can use any motherboard, which can work with Windows 2000 . Motherboard should have two ( or more ) PCI slots and COM port ( can be external, or internal ) .

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  • 2 weeks later...

LAST UPDATE FOR THIS ISSUE!

I brought a 2nd 3011 into the lab that had been sitting for years.  After reconnecting the scanner, filling the tanks etc. I plugged it in and powered it up.  To my surprise the PC would not start! Thinking about what this machine, my original 3011 and the replacement motherboards I had installed on 3011 number 1, I determined that the common factor was they are all OLD!  In my replacement motherboards and the two in the 3011s the CMOS battery's were all DEAD.  None I found had more than .03vt.  I replaced the battery's on both machines and both are now running!   It seems my issue on 3011 number one from the beginning was the motherboard battery.  Battery's do not seem shorted so I guess this motherboard  does not like 

In all the parts replacements I did on 3011 number 1 it now shuts off after the Noritsu software starts.  Shut down is a clean shut down as if something in the software has decided it is suppose to turn off.  I'll retrace my steps and all the replaced parts and work through this.  Thanks for all the help.  Keep the CMOS battery in mind should this be seen again.

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9 minutes ago, lfitz350 said:

3011 number 1 it now shuts off after the Noritsu software starts.

Check the COM (serial port) connections to the motherboard and ATX power supply are properly connected.

If the Noritsu software doesn't see the UPS it will shutdown the computer.

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Thanks Dave, UPS connected to the Noritsu 1 and COM port connection matches Noritsu 2.  Didn't realize the Noritsu software looked at the UPS.  Noritsu 2 has the UPS connection at the ATX power supply disconnected and it's running.  At one point it I think it was disconnected because we were told that if the batteries were dead that the Noritsu would not turn on.  I hadn't paid any attention to that on Noritsu 2 until I read your message.  Now I'm curious as to why it working.  Scanned 30 rolls this morning.  

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19 hours ago, lfitz350 said:

Thanks Dave, UPS connected to the Noritsu 1 and COM port connection matches Noritsu 2.  Didn't realize the Noritsu software looked at the UPS.  Noritsu 2 has the UPS connection at the ATX power supply disconnected and it's running.  At one point it I think it was disconnected because we were told that if the batteries were dead that the Noritsu would not turn on.  I hadn't paid any attention to that on Noritsu 2 until I read your message.  Now I'm curious as to why it working.  Scanned 30 rolls this morning.  

I don't know how on machine 2 it is working without the COM connection going to the UPS.

My guess is someone has modified the wiring to simulate the OK signal from the UPS.
I suspect if you were to unplug the COM port connection from the motherboard on machine 2 it would cause the software to quit and the PC to shutdown.

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Dave, you are 100 % correct and I misunderstood what you were trying to tell me!  I wasn't thinking that the connection to the back of the ATX was a COM connection, I was looking at the COM connection to the motherboard! 

On both my NOW RUNNING 3011's the battery connection to the ATX power supply it disconnected.  On both machines the backup batteries are about dead, but the COM connection is NOW connected.  On the machine I've been having so much trouble with I had the COM connection to the ATX disconnected when I was working to get the motherboard to power on and since it kind of hidden I missed reconnecting it after replacing the motherboard battery.  It's all good now, both 3011s are up running!

My problem from the start was the dead battery on the motherboard.  I've learned a lot during all these problems and I thank you for all the help and support! 

I hope I can help someone else in the future.

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The machine doesn't care if the UPS batteries are connected or not.
It just needs to see the UPS is connected via the COM port to be happy.

Yes some motherboards get upset if the CMOS battery is dead.

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